Today is going to be a serious topic day.
I would love as many comments as I can get on this one because I really am curious about your opinions.
Last week in California a child, we’ll call him Bob was killed by another child that he went to school with. ( I am using alternate names because I don’t want visitors from web searches coming in to get details I just want regular reader opinions.)
One of my co-workers knows a lot of inside information about what happened because his son goes to the school where this occurred, and he has a good friend that knows the father of the slain boy.
Bob went to school in full makeup, wore feminine clothing, and hit on other boys at school.
The boy that shot Bob, was quiet, had never been in trouble before and obviously couldn’t deal with Bob’s advances.
But wait, there’s more.
Bob was a ward of the state. Bob was a ward of the state against his father’s wishes. Bob was taken out of his home at Bob’s request by family services because Bob’s father “did not accept Bob’s lifestyle choice” and would not allow Bob to go to school in full makeup and feminine clothing.
The state encouraged Bob to express himself with the makeup and the clothing.
It is my humble opinion the the state greatly contributed to the death of this minor.
I think there is plenty of blame to go around here. It was an avoidable cataclysm of events.
Bob’s father dealt with his son poorly. He could have shown more support of what his son was, which was a great kid who liked makeup and feminine clothing and was pretty sure he liked boys instead of girls. I understand why he tried to suppress his son. It was a tough school where alternate lifestyles would not be accepted. I think the better solution would have been to find a school or school alternative where his son would be safe being who he was. He should have had a better rapport with his son and let him know that people are scared of what they don’t understand and can react violently to things they find unusual.
Ultimately the shooter has to be held responsible for what he did. But he was 14. How responsible can you find a 14 year old for anything? Just turned 14 by the way, 1 week after his 14th birthday is when he did the shooting and will therefore be tried as an adult by the state.
I have to fault his parents to a large degree. How can you not know your child is so wound up about something that he’s going to kill someone? Where did the kid get the gun? (I haven’t been able to find out yet) If he didn’t get it from home where did he get the money? Guns are not cheap.
How anti-gay was the home this kid was raised that he’d shoot a kid that was hitting on him? Now I understand even being hit on by a gay kid in a rough school can get you seriously singled out. But where I grew up, in rural Canada on the east coast where even the suggestion of calling someone gay got the shit kicked out of you, you’d never shoot someone before you beat the shit out of them. There were always levels. First you told the person who upset you to fuck off. If that didn’t work you told them fuck off or I’ll beat the shit out of you. If that didn’t work you proceeded to beat the shit out of them.
This behavior applied to any situation. If you looked at/hit on someone’s girlfriend the same warning system was in place. So while gay was wrongly considered bad behavior, it wasn’t treated differently than anything else that was considered bad behavior.
The state in my opinion, in this case has to take a giant crapload of the blame. Bob’s father was doing what he thought was the best thing in this situation. He was repressing his son to try and keep him safe. He knew that the school the kid went to was rough and that if his son wore makeup and dressed in feminine clothes it would be unsafe.
The state took the child out of a safe home because the kid wanted to pursue a lifestyle choice. Being gay is not a lifestyle choice. Wearing makeup and feminine clothes is a lifestyle choice. You can be gay and wear regular clothes and no makeup. Would the state come and take a girl out of a home because her parents would not let her wear makeup and slutty clothes? Absolutely not. Would the state take a boy out of a home because they did not let him drink booze and do drugs? Absolutely not.
Bob was fed, Bob had a roof over his head, Bob was not beaten or abused, he had rules that he didn’t like and the state had no right to take him out of that home.
Finally comes the blame the victim mentality. Bob should not have hit on the shooter. To this I say, Bob should not have hit on the shooter after the shooter had rejected initial advances. But this was not the case, Bob, even after being told to stop, continued to harass the child that shot him.
Plenty of blame to go around. But if you are a parent the way you can avoid something like this happening is to let your children know, there’s nothing wrong with being gay, and how to properly resolve conflict. Be a role model. Treat even the people you hate with at least a modicum of courtesy and respect, to show them that you try and treat people even those you hate the way you’d want to be treated.
Oh boy…a subject right up my alley….Of course, this is a very complex issue. In my opinion, it’s not usually a good idea to allocate blame in situations like this. We very rarely know all of the details. From what you’ve said (and living in Scotland, I’ve heard nothing of this except what you’ve written), the majority of the wrong decisions seem to have been made by the family of the boy that did the shooting, if I understand you correctly. It seems to me that he was brought up with hatred. People rarely come to that kind of hatred without a great deal of indoctrination.
I can only assume that the boy who was shot was removed from the household after being properly assessed as being at risk to himself or others. I would find it very difficult to allocate blame for encouraging him to be true to himself. In adolesence, it is normal to hit on people you are attracted to. Gay or straight. Safe school or dangerous school.
Well, that’s about it for me. It’s entirely possible that I have completely misunderstood who shot whom. One last thing I’ll say is that the media, I think, can assume a great deal of responsibility for these types of mass shootings in general. They are sensationalised in the media, and I can see how they might look like a very attractive way to express myself if I was of an unbalancede nature.
@Donna
I can’t speak to the upbringing of the shooter. I only guessed at it being a strong anti-gay atmosphere because I can’t fathom the stigma of getting hit on being strong enough to shoot someone unless it was reinforced everywhere.
I completely disagree with your assumption that the child was removed after properly being assessed as a danger to himself or others.
I also disagree with your stance on the encouragement for being himself at a school that was dangerous. With a problem like discrimination and hatred, the problem has to be dealt with on 2 fronts. The first front is education against the discrimination and hatred.
The second is front is the front not being addressed. It is dealing with the realities of the situation. Understanding that while Bob should be free to express himself with makeup and feminine clothes, there are places where he will not be safe while expressing himself and should therefore a) help him find a different way to express himself or b) move him to a place where the expression is accepted.
I agree it is normal behavior to hit on those you are attracted to, but in the same light it is drilled into straight boys no means no. Gay boys are no different. No should mean no. But I agree at 14, no means I’ll just try again in 15 minutes to any hormonal teen no matter what their sexual preference.
Don’t get me started on the media. It stopped being credible many moons ago.
I suspect that this is even more complicated than your insight allows. You identify one piece of the issue being that the shooter wasn’t well equiped to handle gay advances- and I agree with that statement. I of course do not know if the young man addressed Bob’s advances with his parents. It was obviously humiliating to him and at 14, anything embarassing is difficult to talk to your parents about. Regardless, I can only imagine that they are in agony that their son chose to kill a classmate- even if he was harassing their child VERY inappropriately. I also think that the 14 year old SHOULD be held accountable for his actions. He KILLED a kid. Intentionally.
I have a very hard time believing that the only reason the state took custody of Bob was because he said his father didn’t support his lifestyle. That doesn’t seem legal. Does this mean that children can leave their families if their parents won’t let them dye their hair or pierce their tongues? I would, sadly, hope that more was going on in that household as otherwise it seems like a severe injustice to Bob’s father to allow the state to take the child.
Bob was WAY out of line. If a young man was harassing a young woman with such verocity, what would have been done about it? I suspect something. I also think that Bob had WAY more wrong with him than a crush on a boy. I have no problem with a 25 year old man choosing to wear makeup and dress like a woman if he so wishes. I do, however, believe that 14 is too young to make decisions like that and that responsible parents don’t allow that kind of decision to be exercised by their child. I feel this way because of stories like this one- evidence of what can go horribly wrong.
What a tragic story.
this is one of those situations where it seems as if everyone involved seems to have made a bad choice. and the bad choices piled up until a child was killed and another child’s life was permanently damaged.
i think 14 is too young for makeup. period.
i think if someone says no, it means no. not ‘keep trying until i give in.’
i think parents have a responsibility to teach their children to respect others.
i think that the state ~way~ overstepped the boundaries when they chose to remove bob from his home.
i think trying a 14 year old child as an adult is wrong.
i think this is a horrible thing that has happened and unfortunately, i think it will happen again.
Here’s what I think.
People will keep killing each other instead of solving their problems by beating each other up until guns are less easy to acquire and gun ownership is not considered a god given right.
Children aren’t learning how to deal with their problems appropriately because parents aren’t parenting effectively; either because they don’t know how or because they are incapable of doing so.
It doesn’t matter who’s to blame. Nothing will change because we don’t have the collective strength of will tp change.
Where to start?
Okay, I’m a Christian and all of that. I believe that having sex with a same sex partner is a sin and so forth. But I believe that about all unmarried people, and so far I don’t believe that having sex with someone you’re not married to of the same sex is a worse sin that having sex with someone you’re not married to of the opposite sex. And regardless of the actual sin and what God thinks of the act, my own personal thought are that I’d rather be around gay monogamous people than “normal” people who sleep around. I don’t think that many gay men “choose” to like other men (though I think maybe there is sometimes something else going on with gay women) but they still have the same choice as anyone else as to whether or not to have sex or abstain.
I don’t think this whole right to express yourself stuff should apply to children. I think that it’s a right that adults are entitled to within reason (no causing riots or yelling fire in a crowded theater and no walking around naked except in your own home or nude beaches). And they shouldn’t be allowed to wear whatever they want to school anyway. We had such rules when I was growing up, and I thought they were quite unreasonable at the time, but they weren’t. And look how awful people dress now. But we girls had rules about how long a dress had to be and we had to wear knee socks until a certain age instead of nylons. The guys had rules about hair length and absolutely no jewelry. Some guy was going to quit because his dad gave him a gold necklace and he’d never taken it off and he wasn’t going to. The rule is the rule, so either don’t go to school or don’t wear the necklace, or wear a dress shirt and tie over the necklace so it doesn’t show.
It’s hard to believe that Bob was removed from his home just because he wanted it. If that’s true, then Bob doesn’t understand that there are consequences for your actions, you don’t just get everything that you want, rules are rules, etc… How was taking him out of the home supposed to teach him anything? Maybe there was more to this than just Bob didn’t want to live with his dad. Maybe was his dad beating him or something?
It shouldn’t be a matter of the state trying certain kids as adults or trying them as adults after a certain birthday. It should more the other way around. You shouldn’t just get off easier because you’re a kid. There should be a hearing to decide to send the kid to family court, not a hearing to decide that kids have to go to regular court. Kids shouldn’t just automatically have their records sealed just because they’re kids. Maybe after they’ve really done something to prove that they’ve learned their lesson, not just that they’ve gotten older and gotten away with it til then.
Oh, and I think maybe there was a step missed in the stuff you do before you shoot someone who is hitting on you. Like you tell them to go away, and then you beat up on them, and then if that still doesn’t work you get half the football team to beat up on them.
It used to be a simple thing of “I”m going to tell your mother on you.”
@All
My tongue and cheek How things were when I was a kid was just that, tongue in cheek, I don’t support gay bashing or beating people up when you have a problem with them but I am being truthful when I say that’s how things happened when I was a kid.
We moved from central Canada to Eastern Canada when I was eight and my second day there 6 kids beat the shit out of me because I “talked funny”
They all got in shit for it, because “Someone told their Mom.”
I also think someone has to be held accountable for the kid’s (shooter’s) actions. The age of the kid that did the shooting is at the cusp. If the kid is not held accountable the parents should be in some way.
Of course I know I do not have the whole story. I do have more details than anything that is being reported though because of the laws barring the press from publishing information about minors. Still it is second and third hand info.
Even with second and third hand info I still think it’s better to discuss the situation because people have stopped having intelligent discussion about important topics like this these days.
I have several gay friends. We joke around and hang out. Now that I have chairs in my new apartment, I’m going to be inviting them over. I can get along with just about everyone. Those who try to piss me off though…that’s a different story. Sometimes I’d like to beat the shit out of those idiots or, God help me, shoot them for just being total assholes. To me, it shouldn’t matter if you’re black or white, pink or green with yellow polka dots, gay or lesbian or straight. There is enough turmoil in this world without adding the little stuff and I’m sorry, but I do believe 14 year olds should be tried as adults. They do an adult crime, they get tried for it in adult court. THEY KNOW that they can get away with it most times because they are minors and they will continue to do things that they know are wrong because they are minors. I think they started getting tried as adults at that tender age a few years back when the – what was it – 2 12 to 14 year olds raped the 10 year old(?) girl back in England, I think it was? Sorry, the details are a little hazy, but I believe that’s why they raped her. Because they were minors and they thought they could get away with it for that alone. Boy, I bet THEY were surprised when they were tried in adult court for an adult crime. I believe also that 14 is too young for make-up, etc., but unfortunately, young kids who start to get confused about their sexual orientation at that age just don’t know what to do or who to go to. They can’t go to their parents if their parents drill it into them that it is wrong in the eyes of God and the world. If there is no student councellor, then they can’t talk to anyone at school. They can’t go to their doctor or priest for the same reason. The doctor will go to their parents (they think) even though there is supposed to be doctor/patient confidentiality and their priest? HA! That’s why some young, confused kids commit suicide, or as just happened in the news, get shot to death for not taking no for an answer.
[...] Welcome to Jestertunes! If you’re new here, you may want to subscribe to my RSS feed. Feel free to leave a comment, read through the archives, and enjoy yourself. See you again real soon!Dave over at The Watters Edge sent me an email yesterday morning asking if I would check out his latest post. [...]
I dedicated a post to my response… http://tinyurl.com/2n5o6v
Great topic, Dave. Thanks!
I too, don’t think kids should escape justice just because they are just below the “juvenile” cutoff. Quite often, people’s mindsets are set by 14. They don’t magically become a different person when they are no longer a juvenile.
@All
I’d like to thank everyone who commented. I don’t agree with everyone but I am honored you are willing to come have a frank and open discussion about such grave subject matters.
I think if more people read blogs and at least allowed themselves to see why people held the differing opinions that they do it would go a long way to bridging the divide.
Society as a whole is losing it’s ability to debate on a meaningful level. While I don’t think my blog is going to have an earth shattering affect on bringing it back, I do love the fact that I have readers that will share their opinions knowing that I’ll always appreciate their presence and input even if I don’t agree with them.
Hm. First of all, slut (that’s what I call her; not a mean name), I had no idea you were a Xtian conservative. I respect that; I just didn’t know.
I agree with some of what was said above; although, to be fair, I believe as well that there must be other reasons to have removed “Bob” from the custody of his parent(s). The state can’t remove a child without real sufficient cause. Look at the kids that are still left in the guardianship of their biological and adoptive parents who should have been moved to state’s custody and never do.
Third, I am going to be really out there on this one. The shooter is 14. It was premeditated. There were many other options. Age of accountability occurs about the age of 12. This “child”‘s actions have every reason to be tried in adult court. My firm belief is that this child should be tried as an adult with this heinous action as an adult crime under Murder 2. Period. Not manslaughter; not murder 1. Murder 2. Period. It’s premeditated. The child can go to juvie until he is 18, and then spend the rest of his sentence in an adult facility. I do not believe he should be sentenced to life, or 20 years without parole; but I do believe that the child should serve at least 10 years for his crime.
Oh wait, one more thing.
Charlene, I was horrifically teased and verbally abused growing up, and had all kinds of emotional problems. My family had shotguns, rifles and handguns in the house.
But growing up, there was no secret about it. We were taught to respect the guns; we were taught how to shoot the guns on a regular basis. Nothing was a secret; we understood what guns were for and how to use them.
Never once, in my entire horrific childhood both at home and at school, did it occur to me to use one of the readily available guns with readily available ammunition at school. Nor did it occur to my brother, who experienced the same kind of tragic abuse at school.
I’m very seriously conservative and I believe that gay sex is a sin. It’s just that it’s a sin that I don’t really care that much about, if that makes any sense. I’ve been friends with several openly gay people, and two of my inlaws are openly gay But for the most part they don’t hit on people who aren’t interested and they don’t get in people’s faces and such. They have jobs and mind their own business, and at the end of the day they just happen to go home to someone of the same sex.
I have never even seen either of my gay inlaws kiss anybody. They really like to keep their private stuff private. Sometimes a couple is so private that I get confused about who is with whom.
@laughingatheslut – So if these gay inlaws or friends of yours didn’t have a jobs, or if they kissed their partners in a public place you would be able to understand the compulsion to kill them? I’m really not sure I understand the point of expressing that you think gay sex is wrong unless you are in some way trying to excuse the actions of this despicable 14 year old.
Freedom of expression is not limited to those of voting age. The constitution is supposed to protect the rights of all individuals, regardless of age. If you suppress the natural expression of creativity and personality in children, you will end up with a mindless flock of boring sheep for adults.
Not true. Just all people need limits, and if you don’t get that through their little heads when they’re younger, they’re going to have serious problems when they get older.
I’m sorry that you can are so stuck on this thing that you think I’m trying to excuse the shooter. I think gay sex is a sin, I just can’t see that it’s a sin that hurts anyone except maybe the sinner. I can’t get all bent out of shape over it. But the truth is that in this case, Bob would be alive now if he’d shown some restraint. It’s not his fault, it’s the shooter’s fault. But Bob is still dead. After we put the shooter in jail, Bob is still going to be dead. I’m sorry that not wearing makeup and such made him unhappy, but we all have to do things that don’t make us happy. Children would eat nothing but sugar and die if we let them, but we’re not supposed to do that.
And you can’t serious think that the writers of the constitution meant for children to have the same rights as adults. Children have the right to food and shelter and clothing and education and such. The other stuff comes later. Children should be seen and not heard and all of that. They’d probably be really sick to think how their ideas are being twisted around to get rid of prayer in schools and have kids wearing inappropriate clothing and such.
@Jester and Laughingattheslut
I am on the line between both of your views for Bob’s responsibility in this.
Let me compare it in this way Jester to see if you can begin to understand where some people will see this.
Let’s say Bob was black and that on his way to school everyday he had to pass by a parking lot that held a KKK rally every day.
Bob can’t help being black, there is nothing wrong with being black, but I think Bob should have the sense to cross the street or take a different route to school to avoid the KKK rally for his own safety.
This is how I feel about boys who wear makeup and dresses and high heels. There is nothing wrong with doing this, but I think they’d have the good sense to understand that it can be a dangerous thing to do.
I think it’s wrong that they have to hide what they are but I’d rather have them live with the harsh realities of life than be killed.
I was thinking that as a woman it would be really stupid of me to go someplace alone and accept a drink from someone I didn’t know. I’d probably get raped. I wouldn’t deserve to be raped, but that could happen. Since I know that could happen, I don’t do that. If someone else does that, and she gets raped, I want the guy hung by his balls on a tree near a large bed of fire ants, covered in honey, and then left to die. But my first thought is my own protection. I’d rather not have something bad happen to me in the first place, instead of doing something stupid and then having justice and/or revenge on the responsible party after something bad has happened to me.
@laughingattheslut – “Bob would be alive now if he’d shown some restraint” How is that not blaming the victim? What if Bob didn’t wear makeup and was just simply openly gay? Does he still deserve to be shot in the back of the head while he is at school?
“And you can’t serious think that the writers of the constitution meant for children to have the same rights as adults.” What!? Where do you get this from? Do you see anything in the constitution about age? Do you see any clause that says you are not allowed the right to free speech or religion until you are 18? It’s not there. You say the other stuff comes later… when?? And I can not EVEN believe you just said that children should be seen and not heard. Prayer in schools!? You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.
@Dave – Black Bob has the right to walk any where and every where he wants. He has the right to walk there without being harassed or MURDERED. If you are going to blame Black Bob for getting killed for walking through that parking lot, you are a hair away from blaming Sexy Jane for getting raped because she wore a miniskirt to a bar. Wow, if only the Jews had stopped pissing off the Nazis and moved out of Germany and Poland.
Dave….what should Black Bob do if they hold KKK rallies on both sides of the street? Should he stay home from school? Move to a town where there are no KKK rallies? How far should he go to limit his own freedom so that people who can’t control themselves won’t be tempted to commit the crime of killing him?
There is only one person to blame Bob’s death and it’s not Bob, it’s not the state, it’s not Bob’s dad, it’s the dickhead who pulled the trigger.
@Jester
I’m not saying that Black Bob or Sexy Jane don’t have the right to do whatever they want, I am saying Black Bob and Sexy Jane should have the sense to see danger where it is present.
( I love those names btw)
I’m saying it’s a matter of reality vs Utopia.
I’m saying that if Black Bob decides he’s not going to cross the street when there is a KKK rally, then Black Bob should have some friends with him to ensure that he won’t get beaten and killed because the realities of everyday life show that when large numbers of white supremacists gather in one place they will beat or kill a single black man that walks by if they think they can get away with it.
I’m all for the Utopia where we all get along and sing Kumbaya and Pauly Shore is funny but we all know that this place does not yet exist .
There are bad sides of town, wrong sides of tracks and tough fucking schools in the world. Those that have to be in the neighborhood of any of them should know what sets people off and to watch their asses.
Well, I thought maybe Jester didn’t read my last comment, but he’s actually quoting some of Dave’s and he still doesn’t get it, so I guess he just doesn’t get it whether he reads or not. People need to have sense. The law isn’t going to protect you if you stick out your own neck, it’s just going to give your attacker a fair trial afterwards. Bob is dead, and the shooter will get a fair trial and hopefully life in prison. But Bob will stay dead.
And no I am not kidding you about children should be seen and not heard. They did not put up with nonsense from children or teenagers (though the teenagers probably had the option of leaving if they didn’t like it). And yes, they did mean for there to be prayer in schools, they just didn’t want particular kinds of prayers forced on people. Catholics could pray and then Baptists could pray, etc… and if it took til lunch break to get everyone’s prayers in, they were okay with that. They had Bibles printed specifically for schools and everything. Those guys prayed for hours and hours while they were writing the constitution. They had no idea that their words were going to be used to ban prayer in schools.
That friend of my gay brother-in-law who brags about sleeping with men who are either not gay or not “out” yet might get killed. My gay brother-in-law and his other gay friends think he is being very stupid either way. When someone comes for him, they’re going to call the police, but they aren’t going to do much else. They’ve decided that there is no reason for them to get hurt trying to protect him. He should have kept his mouth shut in the first place.
I know that’s what they’re all saying, and I know that they’re right, but I wonder if my brother-in-law might change his mind if he sees the guy coming for his friend.
@Orthume
If I felt unsafe going to the school surrounded by KKK rallies if I could not surround myself with enough friends to feel safe, then yes I would most certainly move.
I consider my safety to be my number one concern.
Would I try to change the system? Absolutely.
Look at the integration of blacks into the school system. They did it with large groups and police support. There was obvious danger. I don’t think a trans gendered kid is in any less danger.
The people who commit such crimes are animals and should be treated as such. But I’m smart enough not to go to a zoo where there are no fences where the animals can get me.
What if everywhere you go there were KKK rallies? You don’t have the money to keep moving. People harrassed you wherever you were. This is how it is for many people. Sometimes there’s nowhere to go.
Do you think Bob might fit into that category? Do you think there’s a place today where he could have felt truely himself?
If being him true self meant there was NOWHERE to be comfotable, there’s still no reason for him to be shot by anybody. And assigning him any portion of the blame for his own death is ridiculous.
@Dave – “but we all now that this place does not yet exist” That place will never exist as long as we keep crossing the street to avoid the KKK rally. Where would we be if not for the Martin Luther King Jr’s or Malcolm X’s or Matthew Shepard’s? What if Rosa Parks had moved to the back of the bus?
I’m not saying that there aren’t times where a little safety-consciousness isn’t prudent. BUT I’m saying that a kid should be able to attend school and not fear a bullet to the back of his head, whether he’s wearing a dress or a swastika tee shirt.
@Laughingattheslut – I was actually quoting YOU. It drives me fucking crazy when people assume that since I don’t agree with the ridiculous statements they make it is because I’m too obtuse to comprehend what I am reading. You really need to do some research into the founding fathers of this country and the drafters of the Constitution. For the most part, they were atheists and deists. You should also spend more time reading the document than reading the Fox News commentary on it, because you will see there is no allowance for prayer in schools, or different rules for different people. There IS however a very clear declaration of the separation of church and state.
Your “gay friend” (I love how everyone has a gay friend that somehow absolves them of saying stupid shit about gay people) who outs others could indeed get himself killed, but it’s not because he’s gay. It’s because he’s sharing information that others want to keep secret. It would be no different if he were blabbing about straight affairs, or disclosing that his clients are embezzling funds from their company.
People should blab about straight affairs and such. But the gay guy was just blabbing because he likes attention, not cause he was concerned about the health of the women the other guy might have sex with. So now he’s going to get some attention.
Show me where you quoted comment 19 to indicate that you read it. What you quoted was from comment 17.
And what you quoted from comment 17 is true whether you like it or not.
@Orthume
There is always someplace to go. Sometimes it’s very hard to find, but there is always someplace to go.
Do I think there is somewhere where Bob could have felt free to express himself. Yes. There are schools that cater to at risk kids and there are schools that cater to trans gender and gay kids.
The internet is making it easier to find these places.
No one deserves to get shot by anyone.
I’m just saying that when in a hostile environment it’s not intelligent to do something more likely to get yourself hurt.
If a man was holding a gun to my head, I would be saying ,”Please Mr. Man with a gun don’t kill me.” I would not be saying, “Wow, not only are you a violent gun owner you are ugly too.”
I understand and agree that Bob should be able to wear whatever the fuck he wants.
What you and I don’t agree on is how to react to danger.
@Jester
See above.
And Martin Luther King was a great man with a bunch of people supporting him. But see the parallel in the situation. Dr. King got shot.
You and I live in a better place because of his willingness to face that danger.
@laughingattheslut – Is that a thinly veiled “sleep with men, catch the AIDS” reference? Comment 19 wasn’t worthy of comment, it was you further trying to justify blaming the victim. I pretty much said all I have to say about that in my response to Dave.
Show me where the Constitution states that children are not afforded the same protection and freedoms given to adults.
Show me where the Constitution states that there should be prayer in schools.
You can’t. It’s not there. Whether you like it or not.
Hello everyone! I’m here and I AM someone’s gay friend, so I thought I should throw my thoughts in. I’m mostly going to agree with Jester so far though.
The whole reason we have laws is to keep people from violating the rights of other people or society as a whole. As far as I am concerned, transgendered Bob is in NO WAY to blame for his own death. This is absurd. I feel t-Bob should be able to express himself in the way whatever way he likes. The whole idea of a free society is based on this. Free speech means I should be able to say whatever I like, whatever I believe, and no one can stop you. They may disagree, hell, I may disagree, but we can’t stop you. It may enrage us, but we can’t shoot you cuz that violates your right to live.
Tell me, which rights of the shooter did t-Bob violate? He seemed to be hitting on him inappropriate (and tacky) and perhaps the school administration should have done something about that, the same they would have done if a boy were constantly harassing a girl whose pants he wanted to get into.
Making someone angry by being or doing something that is within their rights to do, doesn’t suddenly justify murder. If a dude is banging his best friend’s wife and the best friend decides to hide in his apt and kill him, you can’t blame best friend for, you know, coming home to his apt OR banging the wife. (last I checked, it’s not illegal to sleep with someone else’s wife, right?)
i’ve typed a bunch, but I don’t feel like I’ve actually said much
Show me where it says that children are afforded the same freedoms given to adults. It was just a given that they were not. They wouldn’t have thought to write it out. Children have to obey their parents. Children pretty much had whatever rights their parents let them have, as long as they weren’t breaking any laws.
Unfortunately, they didn’t think to write anything about actual abusive parents, and there were laws against torturing animals before there were laws protecting children. An obvious major oversight now, but I just don’t think that it occurred to them to write anything protecting children from their own parents.
Wow. Amazing.
It may still be illegal to sleep with someone’s wife, but they just don’t enforce the law anymore. Either way, it should be illegal, and the law should be enforced.
And, twenty years ago in Texas (not sure about now) in some cases it wasn’t murder to shoot the guy having sex with the wife or the wife having sex with the guy or both. I think that the shooter still usually went to jail, but sometimes not, and sometimes just a limited stay at a mental health place. It’s just such a shock to find your best friend in bed with your spouse, and it’s understandable if you totally lose your mind for a few moments.
And obviously, people can stop you from speaking. Just most of the time they can’t legally stop you from speaking.
@Dave You’re making my point for me… do you blame Martin Luther King Jr. for getting shot? So what that Bob wasn’t making speeches on television? It is a far braver act to be yourself in a small community where it could be dangerous to your health.
It is my hope that out of these discussions we foster a better environment for the next transgendered kid who comes along.
What communities offer schools for gay or transgendered kids? I know of ONE school in San Francisco. And that school has received bomb threats and several attempts in court to close their doors because the religious right thinks the school is “promoting homosexuality.”
You’re also only providing a place for those kids who are open and verbal about their orientation to go. What about the gay kids who aren’t out or too scared to ask for placement in the segregated school who endure harassment?
There is not “always some place to go.” Unless it’s Auscwitz.
Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on that part.
A good portion of the authors of the constitution were diests, and I don’t think they would have done any praying when coming up with document that made this country. They did a lot of THINKING when they came up with it.
Try it, it’s fun!
[I wouldn't be surprised if this kid that shot poor tranny Bob prayed the night before and decided god wanted him to kill poor tranny bob. When will people learn that the voices in your head are NOT GOD!]
Sly made the offline comment that hate speech is unprotected speech. I believe she is correct, though I don’t agree with it. Though I’m not big on this hate law distinction thing, but Jester is working on convincing me.
I get that some things produce a powerful emotional reaction. If someone had a shirt on that said ‘the jews deserved it’ it would be horrible and upsetting, but I still think he has the right to wear the shirt.
Jester is going to laugh when I say this, giving the number of times he’s seen me cry hysterically, but I think people need to control their emotional reactions better. Better yet, society needs to value the emotion, but also value the controlled/constructive expression of that emotion.
When I see the sign that says I Hate Fags, it upsets me, but that doesn’t give me the right to kill the guy holding the sign. Now making my own sign that said I Hate You Too, now that’s a better response.
Oh, and I forgot about finding Bob a place to go.
Well, I can think of someplace people like that can go, but it is temporary and it costs money to get it. But you do feel better about things for a bit.
The gay guy at Galaxy Fair was followed around by several guys in pink fairy costumes. Really. Not kidding. They were walking the halls in pink ruffles and glitter and everything. I tried to talk to one of them, but maybe he’d had too much caffeine, cause he was talking too much and and couldn’t follow what he was saying. But the gay guy with the black clothes and the dog collar was a lot of fun.
Anyway, conventions have rules, but that sort of thing is often welcome. We’re more concerned about the realistic looking weapons, and rule 4, when in doubt–shower.
Is it ok to mention that I’m wearing make-up right now?
@Jester
Most certainly Dr. King had a hand in his own death. He knew the dangers he faced and it was a cause worth dying for.
The same goes for Bhutto in Pakistan.
Both of them could have lived if they stopped what they were doing so they were both partially responsible for their own deaths.
I believe too that the plight of gay/trans gendered people is worth dying for in exactly the same way… not that I’d step out in front of the bullet for you.
I’m both an idealist and a realist. I believe there are causes worth fighting tooth and nail for, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and equality.
The idealist in me says never rest until these things are achieved. The realist in me says if and when we fight for these things, we will be in danger until we win.
I would like to think had I been a Jew in Germany during the holocaust I would not have died in the camps, I would have died when they finally caught me killing Nazis by poisoning them and killing in the night when it was safer.
@Lee
I don’t think anyone here has said or thinks t-Bob deserved to die. I just think we all disagree on who holds what percentage of the blame for his death.
@laughingattheslut –
“Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. ”
In other words, if the framers of the Constitution didn’t expressly grant the right, it is STILL granted.
The Supreme Court has routinely upheld the rights of minors with only a FEW exceptions.
How can you impose your (unenlightened) thoughts on the need for children to obey their parents on to the founding fathers? What era are you living in? Did you follow your ex-husband a faithful 10 steps behind? How did you come to be divorced? Isn’t that also not allowed under these same guidelines you are setting forth for children?
And what the hell are you talking about with the guys in the fairy costumes? Are you high right now?
seriously… i thought she was high…
Lee,
I would so love to see your makeup.
Is it special for men only makeup? Or is just Cover Girl or Revlon or something?
@Dave – You completely lose me when you say that King was complicit in his own death. Just because what he said pissed off a certain group of people doesn’t mean that he had a hand in pulling the trigger.
I guess the difference between us is that I WOULD step in front of a bullet for you and to protect your rights.
@Jester
I’d jump in and get beat up with you if a bunch of gay bashers jumped you when I was around, but I’d run like fuck if one of them pulled a gun on you.
I’m very pro-active when it comes to self preservation.
Who is divorced?
There are all kinds of people who express themselves (as long as they follow the rules and are not actually naked or anything) with clothing and makeup and such at sci-fi/fantasy conventions. And sometimes there are gay guys in fairy costumes, who don’t seem to really be into the rest of the convention, but it’s a place where people come in costume, so they come too. The more the merrier and all of that.
Let me throw my 2 cents in on this. Let’s forget about bob and the shooter for one moment. This incident is just an example of how desensitized people are becoming to violence. Society has become more coarse and in some ways dehumanized. Just look at how much violence children are being exposed. It is mostly simulated. Video games, movies music etc. I grew up with Dave and the only video game out was the vic 20 and bythe time high school was over it was the commodore 64. Just look on tv at the amount of advertising for games that show violence but without the consequesnces of it. Kids are not exposed at what happends when people get shot. The pain and suffering of victim and the anguish of a family who loses a loved one to senseless violence. We have movies that have more blood and gore coming out all the time.
Of course coupled with that are parents that refuse to be parents. Parents stick their head in the sand and proclaim automatically it is not my kid when anything goes wrong. Parents look at school as day care so they can go do what ever they want. The days of free love in the 60′s has ended. Grow up and take responsibility. I see teenagers out wandering the streets at 1 am. Do their parents even know where they are? Do they even care. If I stayed out that late I certainly made sure my parents knew where I was and how they could reach me. And it would likely be I would not be out that late again for a while.
The lack of responsibility in society is getting beyond belief. If something doesn’t go your way it is either sue them or make an excuse. ” I am a victim” mentality seems to permeate everything. Life is not fair. No one said it had to be. With this there is no respect anymore. People are all too willing to swear at you these days.
As to this case I see just a complete waste of two lives. The world will never know what Bob could have contributed to society. Sadly he will become a statistic and soon forgotton. We have the shooter that will have a lifetime to sit and ponder his decision to take another life. Instead of contributing to society by just walking away, he will probably become one of those” I am a victim” pleaders. He made a conscious decision and he should stand in front of a judge and plead guilty. Odd are that ain’t happening any time soon.
@Dave I’m glad to know where you stand on the issue. You’d better hope you can outrun me.
@laughingattheslut – So you’re saying that the only place it’s appropriate for Bob to wear makeup or feminine clothes is at a Sci-Fi convention?
By the way, from the latest news reports I’ve read, the school that Bob attended had uniforms, and the school had already determined that the “feminized accessories” that Bob chose to wear were not violating the uniform code. So it’s not that he was showing up to school in drag.
@laughing – You’re suggesting that Bob was the sick one who needs mental help. I’m suggesting it’s Bob’s killer.
Holy crap…comment 37 looks reads like one of the spam mails where you have no idea what they’re talking about.
I don’t know if conventions are the only place where it’s appropriate for Bob to wear makeup or feminine clothes. I just know that we would have welcomed him to do that at several I have been to.
For the record, I am not talking about Creation Con or big company run cons. I’m talking about fan run cons.
“@laughing – You’re suggesting that Bob was the sick one who needs mental help. I’m suggesting it’s Bob’s killer.”
No, I’m not. I’m saying we could have invited Bob to a con. A weekend away might have made him feel better. It makes a lot of us feel better.
And the shooter still needs to go to jail, whether or not he gets mental help.
@paul – I don’t disagree with you about the desensitizing of America to violence. I agree that the shooter should not be able to pull the “I’m a victim” card. What my argument here is that Bob IS the victim and should not be blamed for “getting himself killed.”
@othurme I still think it’s spam mail.
I think the media violence thing is overblown. I’ve known so many guys who love to play Doom, Tom Clancy, etc video games, and not one of them would think of shooting and killing anyone for real.
Amendments IX and X have been used to justify anything. Why? They are so vague. They can just as well be used to justify the rights of the people to raise their children as they see fit, or the right to pray in schools.
There is so much here. This item has truly “come alive”
After I submit, and see that 7 more posts have rained in during my writing, I’m sure I’ll find more of an angle to jump in.
@Dmarks
I love violent films and violent games alike. While they have not made me a more violent person or desensitized to violence, they most certainly have made me a much better shot.
I went to a gun range with a couple of co-workers never having fired a real handgun in my life and I out shot them with their own guns.
@Dave – when we went to school there wasn’t a lot of video games available. Today kids are being brought up by video games as parent give it to them to be their baby sitter. It is one thing for a developed adult to use a video game. It is quite another to have a developing brain subjected to that much violence.
I doubt that VicMan made any of us violent anyway, even if our brains were still developing.
That’s kind of cool about the gun range thing. Sort of like that feller Clint Eastwood in Back to the Future III.
Paul, kids in the 1950s watched all those gun-blasting Westerns, too. I don’t think the baby boomers overall came out to be that unusually violent.
….and a gun range is now easily accessible to me. I expect to be trying it out this summer.
I grew up playing violent games. I still play them. I also understand that it’s wrong to murder someone. And if I were to murder someone, there’s no way I could use video games as a defense.
I am not suggesting that video games are causing poeple to go out and murder people. What it is doing, in my opinion, is setting an example that violence is ok. If someone gives you grief it is ok to hurt someone. It is one think for a 30 year old to play a violent video game. I would presume that they have an appreciation that it is only a game. But what about kids who play these games? Can we say that they are not impacted? How many really understand the full consequences of their actions? Look at wrestling. They have to put warnings on the tv show not to attempt the stunts at home.
I am also not saying that video games, music, movies are the sole cause og it. What I am saying that the crumbling family structure, a constant bombardment of violence, and a horrible ease to get a gun, is it any wonder that there are shootings?
[...] Welcome to Jestertunes! If you’re new here, you may want to subscribe to my RSS feed. Feel free to leave a comment, read through the archives, and enjoy yourself. See you again real soon!There’s been a lot of continued discussion over at Dave’s place regarding the shooting death of the transgendered 14 year old. [...]
@Jester
I decided what the fuck, I’d break it down into percentages on how I would assign blame for the shooting.
Shooter – 84%
State- 9%
Shooter’s parents- 4%
t-Bob’s parents – 2.85%
t-Bob – .15%
The reason I assign such a high percentage to the state is that I believe if you are going to take a kid out of his home you had better make DAMN sure he is protected and safe.
It was reported today that a couple today were charged with 1st degree murder in a death of a 5 month old. he was strapped in a car seat and was left there for 8 days. the couple played video games, watched tv and looked after themselves. The baby was found in the same position he was found. Age of the couple 21 and 23.
Why does it matter who is to blame? Blaming changes nothing. Why not accept there is a problem and work towards a solution?
I also think you are completely wrong when you say that there’s always a safe place. As long as you keep running to the safe place that may be there today, you’re making the safe place smaller.
I’m thinking Hitler. First the gypsies, Poles and homosexuals. Then the Jews. If he had been allowed to continue, it would likely have been anybody that didn’t thnk the same way he did.
@Charlene
Why assign blame? To assure you’ve properly analyzed the situation.
Blame = assessment of responsibility in a bad situation.
Praise = assessment of responsibility in a good situation.
I think it’s important to assess both in all situations mete out rewards or punishments based on the assessments and record these things for future circumstance.
Those who don’t study the past are doomed to repeat it.
Also as more people come to a safe place I believe it gets bigger and better and safer. In the US, San Fransisco is a bright haven to the gay community. In Canada Toronto is becoming the same.
As the safe places grow they become role models for other safe places, a movement starts, it catches on it grows, more people see it and understand it.
Toronto is becoming safe? Toronto is not safe. It is getting more violent with more random shootings. Most of it is drug related. I think if you want a more diverse city I think Montreal would be a better choice.
I think that Bob’s percentage should have been higher, except that we just don’t like to say that.
We call it victim blaming, but we need to be able to say these things and call it something else. We need to be able to say that something bad happened in part because of ___________ , not that somebody deserves something bad to happen because of ____________.
We need to be able to say that gay teenagers and college girls and black kids have done goofball dangerous things that led to them getting hurt, so we can warn the next bunch of gay teenager and college girls and black kids not to do that. But still put the shooters and the rapists and the KKK in jail and say there’s no excuse for doing that sort of thing to another human being.
Have you read a time travel short story set in 1940s San Fransisco? I can’t remember the name of it. It was like one of only two really good stories in a collection of the best gay and lesbian fantasy and sci-fi. You just wouldn’t think there was such a specific thing, much less enough of it for an annual best of collection. Anyway, I read it, and I had no idea that they used to run gay people out of town there.
Dave – Gays are still a minority in San Francisco. And as long as there are people that hate in the world there is no safe place for minorities, especially when others won’t stand on thei behalf. Gays are still bashed on a regular basis in San Francisco. It’s not some rainbow-colored walled city that keeps the haters out.
If people always run, you’ll never fix the problems where they ran from. Some people want to stand and fight.
I just… I can’t… I … oy.
Here’s an idea, why don’t we just round up all the gays and send them to an island someplace where we can wear all the lipstick and high heels we can pack?
And while we’re at it, there should be an island for the blacks, the jews, and the mexicans.
What are we going to do about the gay blacks and gay jews and gay mexicans? Shit. Can’t mix them together. Guess that’s three more islands.
@laughingattheslut – I sincerely hope that you never have a gay child. And yes, it could happen to you.
@Jester and Orthume
I know San Fransisco is not paved with rainbows, I know gays are still a minority I am saying that both San Fransisco and Toronto have great vibrant supportive gay communities that are growing and acting as a great influence on the rest of society.
I’m not suggesting that we put out islands and cloister the gays or the blacks and the Jews I am saying that if push comes to shove you do what the rest of the world does and band together with people you trust and understand you.
You seem to think I have this view that you should never be who you are. I don’t. I think you should always be who and what you are but I think you should be realistic about how nasty the world is.
I’m all for changing the world too. Like you I support gay rights, probably like you I support a woman’s right to choose when it comes to abortion rights.
But I’m a realist and concerned with my own safety and well being. If I were a doctor, I don’t think I would practice in a state where abortion clinics got bombed or doctors got killed by snipers.
Gays more than likely are never going to encompass more than 10% of the population.
In order to get society to make changes generally you have to sway the opinion of 51% of the population.
Luckily, I think that the gay community is making fantastic strides in showing people that equality means everyone.
.
Now I know that jester is gay, Orthume I think you’re Jester’s best friend and band mate and straight yes? (Correct me if I am mistaken I read your blog too, but I can’t remember for sure while I write this.)
I have a question for Jester. Jester you and UMB have been together for as long as I’ve been reading you. I don’t know if as a couple you are people that exhibit public displays of affection. My wife and I are that type that get kissy wherever we roam.
If you and UMB happened to be on vacation in rural Texas and you heard a decent band was playing at a biker bar near your resort and you decided to go.
If the bar was filled with a bunch of bikers that looked pretty rough would you be less likely to have any public displays of affection? ( Morcheeba is dancing around my head as I type…)
Also, I’m going to relate my experiences with a gun as a 13 year old at a school. When I was 13 I went to live with my sister in Ontario for a short period. The school that I went to was fairly rough. One day I looked at a girl, apparently pretty longingly because her boyfriend came up behind me, gave me a shove, lifted his shirt and showed me the gun in his waistband and said, “You stay the fuck away from her.”
I didn’t tell anyone because I thought I might get shot. I never looked at the guy crooked, I never spoke a word to his girlfriend.
It never even occurred to me to do anything else. Ever. Should I have told someone? In hindsight probably. But at 13 years old the only thing that was going through my mind was if I tell and he finds out? I’m toast. What if I tell and they don’t find the gun? Where did he get the gun? What if he can get another gun?
In your world of Utopia, I tell and take the risks associated with all of my unanswered questions and fears but all is right with the world because I stood up for myself and was the person I am supposed to be. In my world I stay the fuck away from the guy and his girlfriend, and live.
I sincerely hope that I don’t have a gay child too. And of course it could happen to me, especially when two of my inlaws (the only two that we are still speaking to) are gay. But I hope that I don’t have any children at all, but there’s always a risk as long as I’m stupid enough to have sex with him. And with anyone else there’d still be a risk, and even then there’s a ten percent chance the kid would be gay.
I think that there already was island, except that it was all girls. I think the experiement ended badly.
I still can’t remember the name of the time travel story in San Fransisco, so that’s bugging me. The other real cool story in the collection was about an all gay military, but I can’t remember the name of that one either.
I recall reading somewhere of gay armies/battalions/etc in ancient Greece.
Oh, yes. I know of a history teacher who speaks admiringly of “Three hundred flaming faggots”.
No, this was a story set in the future. There was an all gay military branch, and maybe there weren’t any other military people at all, just the gay people. And they were all paired up with someone, and the main characters left the military rather suddenly, without really giving that decision enough thought, after their partners died. In this story, all of the openly gay people were in this military or else retired from this military. Though I suppose there were people who couldn’t serve for some reason, like a serious handicap, or they waited too late in life to “come out”, and possibly there were other gay people who didn’t openly live that way, but that wasn’t addressed in that story. It was a short story, not a novel, so there wouldn’t have been time to get into it too much.
Anybody know the names of these stories or the authors’ names? I’d appreciate it if someone would let me know.
Thanks. I’ll never think of the title of the “300″ movie the same again.
Russell at Newspaper Rock, the frequent commenter who is gay and writes short science-fiction stories, might have some idea on the question of who wrote this.
I haven’t even seen that movie yet. And the history class was a few year ago, so I don’t even know if the professor liked the film. But I can just imagine him saying stuff like “those are a bunch of pussies compared to the real Spartans.”
@Laughingattheslut
What on earth does gay literature and conventions and such have with the topic at hand?
As for “we don’t like to say it that way” I think I’ve quite clearly stated that I do say it that way which is why Jester and Orthume and Lee, and my sisters Donna and Charlene so strongly disagree with me.
Jester and I have disagreed on past issues and still, I think, respect one another. I invited him to the discussion via e-mail because I do respect his opinion.
I have also learned more of the case at hand. The reason the state could remove t-Bob is because t-Bob was adopted. In the 5 years after placement of an adopted child the state has much broader rights to remove a child from a home.
Sorry, got off on the gay lit because I was saying how I didn’t even know that people were run out of San Fransisco before I read that story. And most of my gay friends who are not in-laws (or dating or friends with my in-laws) are from the cons or clubs.
And I really was hoping that someone here could tell me the names of those stories.
Jester still doesn’t sound like he respects your opinion, but you know him better, and it has still been fun even if he doesn’t.
@Laughingattheslut
Oh fuck no he’ll never respect my opinion on this matter because it’s diametrically opposed to what he believes in.
He does respect the fact I’m entitled to have my opinion though, and I think he respects that when I argue a point, I’m always arguing the topic and not disrespecting him as a person.
Can we start a discussion on what the Spartans do to the whole nature or nurture debate?
But not for a week or so maybe, cause this has been fun but I should take a break and do laundry or something.
Still hoping to get the names of the stories. Anybody else heard of them?
@Dave Yes, Othurme is straight. UMB and I have been together for almost 6 years. We are not prone to public displays regardless of our surroundings, and many people who meet us do not really realize we’re a couple until they’ve been around for us for a while. Not to say that we are “straight-acting” (whatever that means), just that we don’t have pink and purple flames emanating from us.
I grew up in the midwest and the south around very religious people. I spent my formative years literally surrounded by the hillbillies of southern Missouri. Frankly, I have never feared for my life in any situation, and that includes biker bars (I’ve been in many). Self confidence goes a long way toward gaining you respect and being left alone. There’s only one way to learn that self confidence, and that’s by being yourself.
I don’t live in a world of Utopia. I have seen violence against gay people up close and personal. I have stood in an audience listening to Judy Shepard speak. But I am steadfast in my belief that the only way to change the system is by standing up, not conforming, and definitely not moving away to some place “easier.”
Of course I still respect your opinion. I can see and understand the point you are trying to make. I just happen to have a different perspective. I also respect that you are able to stay on topic and not use the word “faggot.”
@Dave: I was also interesting in the gay military sci fi think, as I like good science fiction.
@Jester: In fairness, LATS used that word when quoting someone.
—-
I graduated from a place with Spartans as the mascot. No mention is made of the homosexuality of those ancient Greek warriors. Let alone the fact that they fight so hard, but lose anyway.
Blame, though, has negative connotations, which is fun for blogging, but not so fun for finding effective solutions.
If you assess a situation, for example, and find that there is rampant homophobia in a school, and you take steps to educate the students and show the advantages of tolerance for other lifestyles, then you’re working towards a solution in an effective, non-judgmental manner. If you blame society, parents, religion, then you get a lot of finger-pointing and name calling and NIMBYing and not a lot of action.
Words make a difference.
@Charlene
I say we can do both for a much quicker solution.
Educate the student populace and hold parents responsible for their kids. Makes for a much better solution where people are accountable for their own actions and responsibilities.
You want kids? Then you are responsible for their actions until they turn 16. Don’t want the responsibility then don’t have kids. Your 14 year old darling kills another kid? Well guess what you are going up the river for manslaughter too.
Responsibility makes a difference too when we start enforcing it.
I agree that parents should be responsible. I even agree that parents should be held responsible, although that one makes me less comfortable, mostly because I am pretty liberal in my beliefs. I think that the path people choose is often narrowed because of circumanstances like poverty, abuse, lack of education, limited intelligence.
However, I don’t think that people should escape the consequences of their actions because of these circumstances. I would like more emphasis placed on education and rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my opinion, punishment solves very little.
That doesn’t mean I don’t see the necessity for jails, for example. But, I think instead of solving problems with more and more with jails, I think we should solve them with things like education and nourishment.
But, I am not opposed to consequences like castration for repeat sex offenders. For murder, maybe exile to an island that only holds other murderers. Or, since there aren’t all that many arable islands, maybe send them to the Arctic or to the moon. Someplace where they have the opportunity to redeem themselves somehow, but where they can’t harm anyone if they choose not to behave. Someplace where they have to work to stay alive, but doing something useful to society (not breaking big rocks into small rocks like they do in the movies). Give them the ability to earn back privileges. You tortured and raped someone before killing them? That’s the rest of your like in the space station mining deuterium ore with no penis. But, you get the chance to learn how to read if you don’t know how already. Show yourself to be a model citizen and you earn day off privileges (still confined to the space station). Or the ability to take college courses via satellite. Or special yummy meals. If you don’t want to work, then you have the option of sitting in the jail cell for the rest of your life.
If parents are going to go to jail with their kids when their kids commit manslaughter, then I think there need to be some prelimary steps. I’m pretty sure no one starts with killing. Like you’ve mentioned before, there’s usually some pre-killing behaviour – usually threats, posturing, pushing, beating. Something. And even psycho and sociopaths start off taking the wings off flies, setting fires, killing small animals.
Give the parents the opportunity to fix these behaviours before they progress to something bigger. Educate, treat, support – effectively. If this preventative medicine is refused, then consequence the parents. A lot of times, the resources aren’t there, or the parents don’t know they exist, or social stigma against seeking help is too strong.
We need to change the focus of our society. There’s a lot of rhetoric out there about no child being left behind. To me, it looks like a bunch of hot air. The idea is good, but once you put it into the system, then it just becomes one more bit of beaurocratic crap. I think we need to find a way to make good ideas actually work.
Another example, Mike Harris’s Commen Sense Revolution. Some of his ideas may have made sense. But, putting them into practice just didn’t work. There is some percentage of welfare recipients that can’t read above a grade 4 level. It would help them to get off welfare if they could read at a grade 10 level. Mike’s solution – go to school and try to learn how to read at a grade 10 level or don’t get benefits. I think that’s wrong. People should be encouraged and rewarded if they learn how to read, not punished if they don’t. If you don’t read above a grade 4 level, it may just be that you can’t. How does kicking people off benefits onto the street help society in any significant fashion?
I could go on and on, but I have to work now. Or suffer the consequences if I don’t.
To all of the above, I believe the first 3 words of the Constitution of America is “We the People”. I do believe that means everyone, including children. Although it would sometimes be nice that children should be seen and not heard – I am not a child-friendly type of person myself (that’s why I’m not having any) – children have rights, too.
They have a right to feel safe as with adults. They have a right to speak up if something or someone is bothering them as with adults. Were we not all children at one time? Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world and nothing goes according to plan. As I wrote prior, some kids who are confused about their sexuality cannot go to people they trust because of what has been instilled in them. Also, these days they can’t go to their priest because nowadays the priest may take advantage of them (another reason why I won’t go to church – you just don’t know who to trust). They tell their parents and they get punished or they act up to the wrong kids at school and they get shot.